Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. I have several. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Both are great calibers. Just bless his little Prsident heart. Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Its only a pistol. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. I like them all! Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. Officer needs help!! Two shots were within an inch of his heart. You get Into a real shooting scenario. Battlestar Galactica. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. Train, train train and when your done. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Ricochet off. Source: Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. The science says otherwise. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. It goes in a like a nail.. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. Damage: 62. I am old school. But whats the long term average? Reality. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. There are four major handgun founding factors. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. 10mm. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. View our Terms of Service My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. I wonder what the future holds? Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? WebAs shown in Fig. Good job! Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). Anyway great comments to all. The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. Gimme a break! Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. Copyright 2023 Police1. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. No regrets. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Government can spend less of my tax dollars (maybe. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Wouldnt waste my money on it. You could smell the gunpowder. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. I also have one that many people will call garbage. Of course shot placement is important. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not For another 2+ years. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. We had a good chuckle out of that one. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. Damage: 22 per pellet. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Sound familiar?? F=MA is not applicable. I dont have the time to read it. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! We can argue 9 vs 45. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Missing it not an option. Thank you Bill ! Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. What you provide is false true and true. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). to stop the threat. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Explore. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Fire Rate: 240



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